Zeynep Gurcanli and Senem Caglayan - The New Anatolian / Ankara



Polish Science and Higher Education Minister Michal Sewerynski suggested Turkish cooperation in combining efforts of four different parties in scientific research, including Polish and Turkish research institutions or universities and private enterprises, to accelerate Ankara's bid to join the European Union and deepen relations between the two countries.

In move to make the Turkish and Polish research sectors compatible with those of the EU, Sewerynski proposed the participation of a research institution and one or a group of enterprises interested in a given field of research from Poland and the same from the Turkish side. "It shouldn't only be the institutions of higher education or research but also some other representatives from the private sector or industry," he said.

Stating that he had invited the Turkish education minister to Poland to sign an already prepared agreement on cooperation in education for the next three years, especially including exchange of post-master's degree students, Sewerynski suggests that Turkish students should get education in multidisciplinary issues in Poland. He underlined that the new Polish system provides students to get education on the synthesis of sciences, stressing the importance of being good in many fields to be a specialist in today's close cooperation between industry and science.

The Polish official, whose country is a member of the EU and has many similarities with Turkey, especially the similarities between the populations and largeness of both countries, also suggested that Turkey spend more on areas of research and education to increase the pace of Turkish accession to the bloc.

He underlined the importance of universities having autonomy in some respect. Urging Turkey to bring its higher education system in line with the one in Poland, he stated that although centralization in education system is somewhat unavoidable, universities at least should have the autonomy to choose their own deans, rectors and presidents and sign cooperative agreements with any international partner.

When asked his views on the headscarf ban in Turkish universities, an issue of heated debate in Turkey, his answer and indirect reference to the ban was interesting.

Supporting the presence of religious practices and symbols in public places in democratic societies, Sewerynski recalled a recent decision taken by the Italian Supreme Court where the court ruled against taking the Christian cross from a school building in a case filed by a Muslim Italian citizen, saying in its ruling that the cross is a part of Italy's culture and national heritage. "It doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, but the cross is a part of our culture. So it will be a good answer to all Christians and Muslims," he added.

Concerning religion's effects on Turkey's EU membership process since the country isn't a part of Europe's Christian culture, the Polish minister says that he doesn't see any major threat for any country which is a candidate to join the EU because the 25-nation bloc doesn't have the authority or any law dealing with the problems of religions, conscience, or freedom of thought.

Here's what Sewerynski had to say to us:

TNA: What's the purpose of your visit to Turkey? Did you have any special contacts here?

Sewerynski: I was invited by the kind invitation of the Turkish minister of education. I take this opportunity to discuss the possibility of developing cooperation between Poland and Turkey in the field of higher education and science. I proposed the new context, framework and principles of this new cooperation and I did the same during my meeting with the president of the Board of Higher Education (YOK). Afterwards I visited the University of Economy and Technology. I invited both the education minister and the head of YOK to come to Poland to sign an already prepared agreement and program on cooperation for the next three years (2007-09.) I proposed to improve and enlarge cooperation in the field of student exchange, particularly the exchange of post-master's degree students, as we call it the expertise studies. It's something between master's degree studies and Ph.D. studies. This type of studies which is very developed in Poland is oriented towards the upgrading the knowledge and professional skills of students who finished their studies some years ago and want to upgrade their knowledge and want to go deeper in the specialization of some fields. It's a kind of getting education in multidisciplinary issues. Normally a master's degree is given for one selected subject of discipline, but we would like to combine different disciplines like biotechnology and pharmaceuticals. It's a new development and a kind of synthesis of sciences. We know that being good in one very narrowly defined field isn't enough in order to be a specialist in today's close cooperation between the industry and science sectors.

TNA: Can we expect some support for Turkish students in this area?

Sewerynski: Yes, there is a practice of bilateral cooperation. Both governments promised to finance certain amount of costs for both Turkish Ph.D. students studying in Poland and vice versa. But this cooperation isn't new. What is new is we stressed the possibility to develop common research between institutions of research in Turkey and in Poland both interested in the same field of research. We'd like to arrange common teams and common projects of research financed by both Turkey and Poland and our international partners, especially our European partners.

TNA: Do you have in mind some specific areas?
Sewerynski: We have in mind some areas. To define more precisely the area which both partners could be interested in, we decided to encourage both ministers and representatives of higher education institutions which deal with research to come to Poland to meet their counterparts and to visit the institutions which are active in the same field. We'll offer them possibility and opportunity to visit Poland and also we'd like to invite some representatives from the field of industry who are willing to participate in this common effort as to engage themselves in research. My idea is that we could combine four-party cooperation. One research institution and one or a group of enterprises interested in a given field of research from Poland and the same from the Turkish side, not only the institutions of higher education or research but also some other representatives from the private sector or industry. So it's a new approach in my opinion, much more courageous oriented on the long term which will pave the way for enlargement and deepening of our cooperation in research. The potential in both science and the economy in Turkey is favorable for this cooperation and the same is true for Poland. Nowadays, using the European Union budget and our state budget, which is growing each successive year, we'll have a stable and strong economic and financial basis to develop this international cooperation.

TNA: The EU has decided to open accession talks with Turkey firstly on the science and technology, and culture and education chapters. What's the experience of Poland in these chapters?

Sewerynski: Fortunately, for Poland and the same is true for Turkey, the sector of higher education isn't a very hard sector to discuss or to negotiate for membership in the EU. In Poland we had already a well-developed sector of higher education and standards of teaching and organization and the notion of university. Since World War II we have developed a European-rooted university system. So it wasn't a problem for Poland to adjust its system of higher education to the EU. Even before we became a member of the EU, we had an opportunity to participate in some projects, funds and programs. For example some of our students participated in some projects in EU universities or went there to study. As far as this sector is concerned we were well-prepared.

But it's little bit different as far as the research sector is concerned. In my opinion the research sector, its principles of financing, were and still are little different. That's why we're now heading to reform this system to make it much more compatible to EU system and to participate in a common EU research area in order to participate in a number of European institutions dealing with organization and financing of EU research effort much more open to EU funds. In the research chapter we weren't on the same level of thinking, doing and financing with the EU. Nevertheless, it wasn't a major obstacle to be accepted as a member. Because there were many other fields in which we had to make an effort and work hard to adjust our system to be a member. So, I think it's not a really central area of negotiations. As far as research is concerned, EU partners knew pretty well the high quality of our institutions and universities and knew about quality of our research and teaching at universities. What was important for the EU was credibility. We were new as a credible partner, looking to have a higher level of education and good level of science. So we participated even before becoming a member. This is the crucial thing to be a member of the EU.

TNA: What do you think about the Turkish performance and credibility in these areas? Will these areas will be hard to negotiate for Turkey?

Sewerynski: Frankly speaking I have no idea because it's exactly the reason why we came here in order to know something more, to know better. We have the intuition and we've given some knowledge too. Turkey, taking into account its population, size and international position, is a potential partner not only for our economy but also for our research programs.

TNA: There are always some criticisms about Turkish educational and science systems, that the share of the budget allocated to these areas is too low. What are your recommendations to your Turkish partners in these fields?

Sewerynski: To increase money spent on research. This is exactly what we're doing. As I told you previously, our budget isn't only based on EU money but also on our national assets.

TNA: Can you give us some figures on this spending?

Sewerynski: Sure, in 2005 our former government spent no more than 0.6 of the (gross domestic product) GDP for research and development and in this 0.6 percent, only 0.3 percent was from the state budget, the rest was from outside the budget. So it was a very low level of financing from the state budget. That's why one of the first decisions taken by the new government was to increase the financing of research from the state budget starting from this budget year of 2006 and going 25 percent higher each year than in 2005. We've already done it. It will be the constant growth in the financing of the research sector. It's very important. Turkey should also improve the system of financing, and it must be one of the objectives of Turkish policy.

TNA: How long will it take for Poland to reach its goals in the education and research sectors?

Sewerynski: In order to come to the level of some 2 percent public spending from the GDP, we need some four or five years, which will be very fast growth. The two other objectives are the selection of good institutions for research and creation of closer cooperation between the scientific and business sectors. They will be reached very soon in accordance with the new legislation in these areas, but the latter is harder to reach. We're working hard to get some interest, to develop and promote cooperation between science and industry. It's not an easy task knowing that in the private sector small or rather micro enterprises are dominating our research sector. They have no money to invest in research. Therefore, we need to find marginal partners from private sector represented by large enterprises or companies. We have to also look and find some partners outside of our country among those international companies which have already made investments in Poland or which are looking to have good research service at a low price.
TNA: The Turkish system of higher education has been criticized as overly centralized. How about the system in Poland?

Sewerynski: The education system is centralized to some extent everywhere. In this case, you have to keep the state control over the main lines and main strategies which have to be developed by the government. On the other hand, as Poland has already achieved, it has to be mostly an autonomous system. For example, all our universities are almost fully autonomous except for the money the state gives them from the budget. They have the autonomy in electing their rectors, deans and presidents, and they have full freedom to sign an agreement of cooperation with any international partner. This is quite a new approach closely related to the democratic principle of the whole political system.

TNA: The headscarf ban in Turkish universities has become a big political issue. What's the policy of the Polish government towards the presence of such religious symbols in the universities or in public areas?

Sewerynski: In order to give you an answer, I will recall the recent decision of the Supreme Court in Italy. This was a case where a Muslim citizen in Italy sued the school claiming that the cross should be withdrawn from the school building. The answer of the Italian Supreme Court was that the cross is a part of our culture, of our national heritage. It doesn't matter whether you believe it or not but it's a part of our culture. So this will be a good answer to all Christians and Muslims. So the country in which (the ruling) was stated in the Constitution that there is a separation between the church and the state. In what sense is it a separation? In the sense that it's not a religious state, meaning that it isn't a place where Christianity or any other religion has privileges within the political or administrative system or any other citizen claiming religious privileges over another. In this sense it's a laik (secular) country in which the church, which is considered a powerful body, is separated from the political and state institutions. But at the same time the cross is a part of our culture and a part of our way of thinking. That's why you can find the cross in the building of the Parliament.

TNA: Turkey isn't a part of the EU's Christian culture. In that sense, how will Turkey's accession process be affected?

Sewerynski: The answer is in the draft of the European Union constitution. It's very much the same as in the French Constitution, in the Polish Constitution etc… There is the separation between religion and the state. This doesn't mean the religion doesn't play an important role in our manner, thinking, and religious practices but it means that the Polish Catholic Church has the right to say some words dealing with religious issues or teachings and practices since it's a part of our daily life. So I don't see any major threat for any country which is a major candidate to join the EU in this respect. The EU doesn't interfere in these fields. The EU has no authority or has no stipulated law and legislation dealing with the problems of religions, conscience, or freedom of thinking. It's outside of the legislative power of the EU.

Reception in the Polish Embassy - Prof. A. Süer awarded by Poiısh Medal of Eductation